Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

From an Interview with Professor Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (june, 1rst 1982)

Professor, how would you define the TFP and its objectives?

The TFP is fundamentally a family of souls and also a family of autonomous and similar associations. They are all civic associations, and therefore their goal is to act in the temporal sphere. Their special goal is to combat the penetration of socialism and communism into contemporary society, which they do through the methods we will describe later on. This combat draws its inspiration from the traditional doctrine of the Catholic Church, so that, even though the TFP is a civic association, from the doctrinal standpoint it has a Catholic inspiration.

Professor, can you explain to us why the name Tradition, Family and Property was selected as the name of your organization?

The reason stems from much reflection and observation of events. There was a time when the socialist danger, and especially the communist danger, consisted in the possibility of leading masses of hungry and revolted workers to rise up against the upper class, which they considered to be enjoying goods to which it was not entitled.

In these conditions, the basic problem Anticommunism faced was one of repressing physical aggression; but it so happened that international communist propaganda gradually lost this aggressive character that the peoples of the West rejected, and thus communism became more and more ideological. It went from revolutionary communism to polemic communism.

This was before the Second World War; communist theoreticians presented the communist doctrine clearly, with arguments, and defined the camps   someone was either communist or anticommunist   but now they resorted less to violence.

To this period corresponded the organization of a Fascist and Nazi type of reaction to communism. Large anticommunist crowds were regimented in an attempt to counteract communist dialectics with a special anticommunist dialectics, a special type of oratory, and a special anticommunist "theatrology." Although the communists did use violence to promote disorder or chaos in order to repress some action of the Fascists or Nazis, this violence was, as in the first phase of Fascism or Nazism, a collateral element if compared to the more important one of oratory, gathering large crowds, and the capacity of orators like Hitler and Mussolini to stir up enthusiasm in those crowds.

Whatever you may think of them personally, I fought them and do not repent it, I think I did well   whatever you may think of them, at that time communism was evidently presenting itself much more as dialectic and polemic and much less as violent.

When the Second World War ended, the tactic of communism changed because the dispositions of public opinion changed. That is, communism became the object of international horror because of the brutality and harshness of its regime. Communism felt the need to give its propaganda impetus through a whole new system in which its propaganda, while remaining ideological, would no longer be overt but covert   an ideological propaganda done less by the Communist Party machinery than by para communist parties: the many shades of socialism and the networks of useful innocents and crypto communists who, without mentioning communism directly, spread ideas that paved its way. That was done not merely to spread ideas, but to produce a transformation of bourgeois society to make it increasingly like the communist society they want to establish.

So, there was a decline of violence   with some rare exceptions which I will address a little later   a change from open to veiled proselytism, and a shaping of society to make it look more and more communist. These are the specific characteristics of this new aspect of communism.

What is the role of violence here? It is not the violence of imposing communism directly, but in some very sedentary and traditional people, violence is used to shake up public opinion and give it an idea of its own instability so that non communist societies will lose confidence in themselves. This was the role of the guerrilla movements that spread in South America for sometime. The Uruguayan TFP has a very interesting book that shows how the Tupamaros   the famous, violent Tupamaros   were nothing but a show to create this sensation of instability in bourgeois society.

Now, two means have been employed to cause this slow journey, this slow transformation of society to make it communist: on one hand, gradually attack tradition, family and property; on the other, present socialism as the hope for a convergence between the two worlds so as to eliminate fights and prepare a great international social peace. So the TFP was born when all this was beginning to happen and it immediately considered it a duty to establish itself as a society to defend tradition, family and property   because that is how you fight socialism  socialism that attacks these institutions and changes society to make it communist.

So, to fight communism, the TFP aims at the socialist trenches and tricks. This is why the TFP was established as it was. The TFPs are civic entities with an ideological-religious foundation organized to combat socialism by preserving tradition, family and property, thereby bringing communism to a halt.

Thank you, Professor. Could you now explain the significance of your symbols: the standard, the rampant lion and the red cape?

With pleasure.

The old President Adenauer of Germany had some thoughts about propaganda that made a profound impression on me. He said that the main task of a current of opinion that wants to spread is to first of all attract those who normally belong to it, who are attracted to it. For this reason, instead of trying to lead socialists and communists to arduous, sensational, somewhat theatrical conversions   beautiful if sincere, but of little import as far as propaganda is concerned   the TFP seeks to recruit for anticommunist action those who are naturally anticommunist.

Now, those parts of society that resist being carried away by communism nevertheless fail to act against it because of certain obstacles that are much more psychological than logical. It matters little if they are in the lower, middle or upper class; they are all accustomed to tranquil fives closed up in the preoccupations of their own families without worrying much about the good of all, the common good.

So, two psychological traits must be emphasized in order to convince these people that they must commit themselves to anticommunist action: stir up in them a desire for great ideals and admiration for courage. Our red standard with the golden color of its lion presents something that speaks of great ideals, that produces a state of mind which is not quite the one a man has when he is merely thinking about the legitimate and respectable benefits of his family, of his person, and of his workplace. In an epoch in which everyone is being threatened by the communist danger and is called to fight and defend himself, the lion elevates the soul to a higher plane, it speaks of battle, makes one feel the nobility and beauty of the right, and communicates at least a little of the sense of battle to all those who contemplate it.

The cape that the TFP members and volunteers wear is intended to isolate, so to speak, their figures from common clothing and transform them, as it were, into busts, projecting them in an ideal and historical perspective. In the eyes of the people, the member, the volunteer of the TFP who presents himself with the cape appears resplendent with his ideals and this easily achieves the goal of the cape, which is to call the public's attention to him who passes selling literature, proclaiming slogans, taking the standard to enthrall the crowds. The cape is an indispensable element. These are our symbols and their explanation.

Now, Professor, I would like to pass to the area of action and ask how the TFP acts to influence public opinion.

The TFP begins with the idea that all the sectors of public opinion, even those which greatly disagree with each other, are interconnected vessels, with an osmosis between one and the others, so that if we concentrate our action in one sector, we are going to be reaching more than that sector alone; we exert over this sector an intense, concrete and practical action which, for the other sectors, results in a diffuse action precious for the course of social affairs.

So we have chosen a certain sector to act upon, and this is the Catholic sector   the one that corresponds to our souls. We are Roman Apostolic Catholics and much more than the defense of personal rights or individual interests, the principal reason that moves us to fight is the preservation of Christian Civilization, of which communism is the most brutal and complete denial. An old Latin adage says, "os loquitur ex abundantia cordis. " I will change the translation of that proverb a little and say: The mouth only speaks well of that which overflows from the heart. This is what overflows from our hearts: a message from Catholics to Catholics to rally them, in the name of the Faith, against the enemy of the Faith.

By choosing this vast sector   considering that there are around 700 million Catholics   we are certain that our work there, specifically for them, produces a concentrated and intense effect, all the more so since we do not speak based only on our own thinking as individuals, but we present traditional documents of the Popes, that is, of the Magisterium of the Church which they admit as infallible, which we admit as infallible and profess as infallible.

In so doing we have better means to convince them to fight for the Church and Christian Civilization. This goal is further explained by the need to combat the progressivist, socialist, and even communist penetration in Catholic circles, which is one of the scandals of the twentieth century.

As a Catholic I say this with sorrow, but this is reality. And if there is no specifically Catholic remedy to combat this evil that is rife in Catholic ranks, this evil will not be fought properly. But we are far from being insensitive to this finding: this combat may stimulate, serve as an example to, and encounter points of support and cooperation from persons who do not hold the same religious position that we do. In deed, we know very well that non Catholics are discouraged at seeing Communist propaganda spread in Catholic circles and that they are encouraged to see Catholics rejecting communism.

We will be very happy if this suggests to people of other religions, in whose ambiences socialist and communist propaganda are also spreading   for no religious ambience has been spared the penetration of this propaganda   we will be very happy if this gives them the idea of doing the same and the notion that, beyond the frontiers that separate us, there is a possibility for collaboration. We are open to this collaboration; we are not open to an ecumenism considered as a mixture of religions in which they are all degraded and lose their identity. But keeping each religion with its own characteristics, without dishonorable relativism, it is certain that we can only consider advantageous collaboration with anticommunists of other religious positions or without defined religious positions.

Very interesting, Professor Plinio. Could you now tell us why you wrote and published the Message on French self managing socialism?

The TFP fought self managing socialism especially because of the circumstances in which it won.

In France it affirmed itself by the somewhat unexpected socialist victories in the 1981 elections. It was presented as the most modem, open-minded, benign, accessible and conciliating expression of the famous socialism with a human face, of easygoing socialism, which communism tries to use as a mask in our days. And in the whole world the mass media, the press, radio and television, presented the victory of Mitterrand as an enormous step of the socialist world toward amiable  collaboration with the non-socialist world.

Whether we like it or not, history proves that what happens in France has special repercussion in the world. For instance, you are an American, we know the role played in American history by the ideals of the French Revolution and the French politicians and military imbued with the ideas that later produced the French Revolution. It was from the ideas of the French Revolution spread by Napoleon and his troops that the great political transformation of Europe in the nineteenth century came about. It wasn't due only to this, but to a great extent it was.

There is something communicative about French things that this time manifested itself in an unexpected way. Why unexpected? Because this French communicativeness seemed a bit worn after the trials of various wars. But supported by radio, television and the press, this communicativeness again affirmed itself enormously.

Then, as I was telling you, all these reasons made it very opportune, even necessary to enlighten public opinion about this great socialist offensive.

More or less around the whole world, socialist parties began to call themselves self managing. What is self-management? Few people know, if anybody does. Self management was thought to be a special way to smile and nothing else. To these reasons that made a rebuttal of self managing socialism urgent was now added a very important practical reason. It is this: In my life I had never seen socialism presented with so much clarity and precision as in the documents of the French Socialist Party.

For reasons which I do not know and don't have to know, everything that socialism always carefully avoided saying clearly and made sure to keep ambiguous, self managing socialism declared in successive congresses, manifestos and documents with extraordinary precision and consistency, so that the self managing goal's radical essence, which is not only communist but trans communist, was admitted and proclaimed by French socialism as its own. So for the first time in my life I had socialism totally unmasked. There was the additional advantage of socialism being unmasked not only by the book of an intellectual whom the party could allege was not representative of its thinking   those were the lone thoughts of an intellectual   but by public and official resolutions of a party. What party? The victor, the socialist self managing party.

That was a unique opportunity to unmask international socialism. So I threw myself into denouncing this socialism, quite certain that my readers would be able to see that while there are different shades of socialism, there is above all an identity of color. And that therefore there are reasons to think that what is said about one, applies to all. So it seemed to me that everything was inviting us to make a great move. This move was made by the TFPs in a joint address to world opinion by means of a special promotional vehicle, that is, publishing a small condensed book in the newspapers. I am not aware of one single instance in which something like this was even done, with such audacity in the major newspapers of the world's leading countries at the same time. This is what has been done.

Thank you, Professor. That was very interesting. Could you now perhaps tell us because of the young men who are attracted to the TFP, how the TFP works with youth?

Doubtless the youth is the sector that the TFP has attracted most. This is, in part, because this is the sector that has preferred the TFP. In other words, the TFP has sought to attract all sectors of the public, and none of them has responded better to it than youth. Naturally, it spread more among them. It is like a river with a mountain on one side and plains on the other: its waters tend to cover the plains and go around the mountain.

Likewise, the younger ages have been more open to the TFP. And interestingly enough, the younger they are, the more open they are. Let's say, the limit is merely a convention, and no one should feel left out of the young category by the limit that I am going to set. Youth is an internal condition that goes much beyond a certain age. But, let us just say that thirty years is the limit of youth. Of course this is totally conventional, arbitrary. Well, if we set this limit we can say that there is good attraction to the TFP for people between 25 and 30. The attraction is even better between 15 and 20. What can I say? We find ourselves facing this savory paradox: The greatest enthusiasts of the defenders of Tradition are found among those who are bearers of the most distant future.

We would not be worthy of the tradition we defend if we didn't open our arms to the future. Now how do we open our arms wide and turn to this future with a smile and an open heart? By not looking for middle ground. Today's youths have a mentality different than that of those who preceded them. This has been so with the youths of every age and holds true to this day. Those who precede the youths see in them their continuation. This has also been true in every age. But there are equivocations in all this. Today's youth is to a certain extent a continuation of those who preceded him, and to a certain extent an innovation. And he feels more profoundly marked by the innovation than the continuation. He will later perceive that he is a continuation, but what he feels at the moment is innovation.